Mathieu Ganio: Étoile, Opéra de Paris (An interview, Part 2)

In case you have not read the first part of this interview, just scroll down the Blog to April 3rd, 2023.

(or click on “Content” and “Just for the record”)

„You see, Mathieu, that is what impressed me in „Clair de Lune" not only its „simplicity" and „cleanness " but its „reduced language". One of those days I was thinking about what is to „reduce" or to “minimalize”. But I was thinking of it in the gastronomy. If you „reduce" anything, it will get thicker, dense, stronger. „Clair de Lune" is perfectly dense in its testimony... But, not losing the thread and getting back to the original reflection: what do you say to this exaggerated „madness" about the „technique issue" that we have just mentioned? And about the craziness of being with a mobile phone all the time watching competitions and more circus-like events?"

„I was thinking... It is not my generation, maybe that's why I don't understand it. Of course, I watch sometimes on Instagram if anybody posts a video, and then you move one second later to the next and after that to the next – it is as if everything could be considered „disposable". And then one just doesn't remember what one has just seen!"

„The mobile phones... think back to 2001 when you were 17 and starting at the Opera and how you got any kind of information concerning dance...", I say.

He nods knowingly because he sees exactly where I want to get at and says „Sure, it was completely different. We had to go to Libraries, Museums, read books – even watch DVDs!” (Note: I watched VHS at the beginning of the 80s – before that, they did not exist!) “Well, when you got to see something special, this was surely an event! Now every second week you can find a new „Swan Lake" online. I can't say if this is good or bad but nowadays it is like that. Surely the value of appreciation has also changed. But it's like that!"

„Would you like to say something to this younger generation as advice?", I ask, not expecting that he was going to give any at all.

Mathieu Ganio/ Romeo and Juliet. Copyright: Opéra National de Paris/ Julien Benham - with kind permission.

He ponders for a few seconds, I see through his eyes that he is going inside himself to give me an answer, as usual a polite one „I don't like to give a piece of advice to anyone – sometimes it may sound like an old man advising the younger generation... I cannot do it – the situation now is so different from what I thought when I was younger... Also, „the starting point" is so completely different. Of course, when you're young you practice and practice your pirouettes, your jumps, etc. but maybe because of my parents, I learned at quite a young age to evaluate certain moments, to „see" them not only with open eyes but with an open heart, and allow myself to be moved by them. But I understand it – sometimes you are dancing and it is not easy to attend other performances, so the only way to be connected with it is Instagram, Social media, etc. Therefore we cannot criticize this... „

„I understand it", I say, „but we have to admit that you are not an „average example". Because of your parents, you grew up „eating, drinking, breathing dance". Other dancers from the Paris Opera came from completely “normal” (Note: I thought three times before using this “expression” but I mean it proudly) backgrounds. We can neither deny nor oversee this. It is a fact! But we have talked about „Technique", in the sense of how people think, now. Could you add something to „Technique is also... „? „, I say without being able not to show my curiosity.

Mathieu doesn't have to think much about that and says quite straightforward „Technique is also... for me, Partnering because it is extremely important and something, even if you have the feeling for it, that you can work on constantly, developing it. Especially as a male dancer, it brings me lots of joy to share emotions with my partner and not only feel more confident but also to enable my partner to feel free to spend more time „expressing" and not just calculating the physical side of lifts, etc. The technique is also musicality, knowing how to play with it, in different tempi, with an Orchestra and how to be „on it", sometimes not so exactly, playfully using the musical phrasing... Not being exactly on the beat, being a bit more flexible. Knowing how to „speak" with the music". That is also what I like in „Clair de Lune", the fact that I „speak" to the music and and have a dialogue with the pianist!"

„A very personal question", I ask purposely, quickly changing the subject „that I always wanted to ask. You are an Étoile, and as we have mentioned before, the center of attention, always on stage, center stage, always in the media and all the rest that goes along with it: Are you a shy person?", I ask smiling.

Once more he smiles broadly but this time he needs a while to answer „Yes, I can be talkative but I can be also shy. I mean, I like to keep my private life private. Also to regenerate myself, to be who I am. I need time alone. Completely alone sometimes. Not even with my friends, or my family. Just spending hours thinking, not doing much. Being by myself is very revitalizing for me. In a way, this could be understood as being shy but I am not afraid to speak, I love discussions with people, and meeting new people, new things but I need my own time and my private life. Just I, myself and me!”"

„Tell me please, quite spontaneously one or two or three or how many you want, of favourite roles. At the moment"

„At the moment, I think I have five!" he says showing me all five fingers from his right hand, reminding me of that little boy that was nearly two years old, on the side of his beautiful Maman on The “Ma Pavlova” show on TV. „Romeo and Des Grieux, which were my dream roles when I was young. I am happy to perform them on stage."

„Which Romeo version? Nureyev's?"

„Yes, which at the beginning, I thought, was going to be too difficult for me but when I achieved the level of performance I aimed to, it was even more than a pleasure! I thought “OK, now I have it and I can begin to enjoy the character more and more” These first two are followed by Onegin and Armand from Neumeier's „La Dame aux Camelias". These were roles that made me realize why I wanted to dance. The fifth role is Rudolph in „Mayerling" - which I have just danced not long ago. I did not expect so much emotional recompensation for dancing "him". The role is not especially „my type" of character. I thought I might be a bit fragile in this quite aggressive, roughly masculine role. But the „journey inside this character" was so interesting, inztiguing. A very complex character, not just „a bad guy". Much more than that. And, I tell you; working on Drugs, Sex, Addiction, and Frustration for two months was „something". Something that you can not leave in your dressing room and just go home to live your normal life"

Mathieu Ganio/ Mayerling. Copyright: Opéra National de Paris/ Ann Ray - with kind permisssion.

„Coincidentally you were dancing Rudolph at the same time as in London Matthew Ball, a dancer I also admire, was dancing Rudolph! And I was following this quite closely – all casts, so many and Rudolphs! One of the most discussed royal personalities from Austria! An interesting but not a pleasant chapter of Austrian History."

„Yes it was MacMillan's 30th Death Anniversary"

„I know that this will be quite an unusual question, and I'd understand if you do not wish to answer it not to hurt anyone or anyone's feelings, but are there or is there any role which you would not like to dance again?"

„This is simple to answer. Just roles which are only based on the technical side – when you just have to go and turn and jump! No... I am not this kind of guy and I do not want to especially do that, I always need to find another kind of motivation inside the part but I must underline that I do really appreciate who does that – I just don't want to be in „the same territory“! It is not „me“, you understand?", and it is quite clear that he means it. 100%. But we know that, don't we?

„I know that you have this huge, admirable repertoire but is there or are there any roles that you have not danced yet and would like to?"

„There are but now it is a bit too late for some... I would have loved to perform „Theme and Variations" from Balanchine, which is on our repertory but this is too late for me. Two others would be: Ashton's “Marguerite and Armand” and “A month in the country” as well as and Robbins' “En sol”, which is also in our repertory. How I'd wish that someday we could add the other two, the Ashton Masterpieces to our repertory at the Paris Opera".

„May I be quite fresh and outspoken and tell my opinion? I wish I could see you in Béjart's „Bolero"

„Talking about being a shy person or not... it is true that Bolero is such a „Male Ballet", simply amazing. But I have always seen myself, if in this Ballet at all, not as the lead... so I think that it is quite questionable if „I'd have a place of my own" in this Ballet. On the other hand, before it is too late, I think it'd be a nice challenge for me. I am afraid but that I'd be too gentle, or too „polite" for it... One has to have a certain „ego" to be on that table, center stage"

Mathieu Ganio/ Romeo and Juliet. Copyright: Opéra National de Paris/ Michel Lidvac - with kind permission.

„The other role I “see” you in is Potiphar in Neumeier's „Joseph's Legend", which was completely „rebuilt" some years ago, has a new much more contemporary „reading" and a completely different, much more “up to date look" in what costumes and sets are concerned. Potiphar's and Joseph's relationship is much deeper and more obvious than in the original from the 70s. It's not that Joseph is just being taken care of, there's a much stronger sexual connotation or undertone in it, also with “Potiphar's woman”. It is an incredible role!"

„I don't know this ballet but I love John Neumeier's work – I'd be so happy to do something of his... „, he adds

„It'd be so much for you. This role requires a Danseur Noble, it requires this natural Noblesse that you have... But am I being crazy?”

He starts laughing (isn't it wonderful to interview someone with a sense of humour?) „No... we do this job so we must be crazy, don't you think?"

„Well, I would like to change “directions” and discuss some topics about “Romeo and Juliet”. To be quite honest, I am a little bit suspect to talk about Nureyev's work as a choreographer. It is, to my way of thinking, too egocentric, sometimes even Freudian (The Nutcracker), and filled with too many steps, too many little things, difficult little things that do not have the necessary „effect" that the public can even evaluate, too many many groups at the same time, too much of everything. My opinion.„, I venture.

„But one must say that for the male dancer, it is much more interesting as his ballets are much more focused on the male main character than the other traditional versions. Somehow I feel it suits me much more as there are more variations, much more to do . In a way I understand what you say, but I don't share your point of view„ he laughs

„About Romeo and Juliet... what do you say to Cranko's version? I'd see you in it... It is so beautiful, so „rich"!„

„This is a good example. I don't want to criticize Cranko's version which is really beautiful but in a way, maybe because I have danced the Nureyev version, it's difficult to express my opinion about John Cranko's work, verbally... Conclusion: I believe that I don't prefer Cranko's version. There are many interesting things in Nureyev's Romeo and Juliet, that I could not see in Cranko's. But I have never danced it. Maybe if I would, I would understand many other things, details... „

„What do you say to MacMillan's?"

„I love the Balcony scene. Nureyev's is so difficult that it is really hard to enjoy and this is what I regret in his version. With such beautiful music, one would like to share more emotion with the public and not only be the guy who is working, working, and working to accomplish all these difficulties and challenges. But in a way, the extreme work that you have to manage during the whole ballet produces also a sort of emotion. So, I understand what we both are trying to discuss but now, especially with my age and to be quite honest”, he adds smiling „I love dancing Romeo and Juliet from Nureyev but maybe, who knows, I could do scenes from another version, or even the full versions... I am quite open for that“ and as he says this, I cannot help but think of Leonid Lavrovsky's version danced at the Mariinsky and so „ignored“ and overseen in the Western World „This is the gist of the matter:“, he continues, „Sometimes you can only do certain things when you are young, because of the physical issue, and later, when you have a better understanding of what should happen dramaturgically... it is too late!"

Mathieu Ganio/ Clair de Lune. Copyright: Opéra National de Paris/ Svetlana Loboff - with kind permission.

„This is what I think is so unfair in a dancer's life. You work, work, work, and then you reach this single moment in which you are technically at the top of your technique and have a mature comprehension of what you're doing, of the feelings you are portraying... That this moment is not a long one. The moment in which the physical and the emotional/artistic sides are in complete balance... You have everything then: the technique, the strength but also the sensibility, the understanding, the finesse. Such a precious moment but extremely ephemeral! So short...„

Mathieu takes a deep breath and just adds „Yes, so short. And life can be also so surprising. Everything also depends on a lot of „luck". Kismet. Some people have an accident, others never get to know the „right people at the right time". All this added to the point that you have just mentioned. I am lucky, even if the shortness of that moment in which everything is perfectly balanced is a fact."

„Sometimes I wish I were a Wizard or a Drosselmeyer kind of character just to stop time, or perhaps make it pass slower. To preserve for a long time these indescribable moments in a career..."

He just nods. In full understanding, agreeing.

„We are slowly coming to an End and I do not want to miss the opportunity of leaving here something for posterity, so that the „Kids"", I have to laugh, because I never use this expression „may have a „feeling for it, a hint. Please think of any role you have created and tell us a bit about how your creative process works... while creating a new part, something you have never danced before! Any part you had to learn from scratch...„

„It depends if you are working directly with a choreographer creating a role or if you are working with a coach that is teaching you the part. This is for me a completely different way of character reading"

„OK, I see... then let's take an example of a part that was being created on you or, better expressed, in which you were 100% involved in the creative process of the choreographer!"

„Very exciting is always the first meeting with the choreographer in which you listen to him, this discovery: The story, his pieces of advice to the choreography, his ideas, his visions. During these important moments, I always try to understand what he wants to tell and what his „story-telling line" will look like. Which emotional elements he is going to use to express what he wants to say, to express what the character wants to say. After that, I need to work on the technical side and at the end, step by step, I need to find my own vision of the character's “whys and becauses". This of course, faithfully to what the choreographer's intentions are. I need to include my touch in it. In the end, and this is the „finishing touch", to feel that, in a way, the character belongs to me. But I repeat: to have at the same time the faithfulness to the choreographer's vision but also to naturally add my “stamp” to it"

„So, you „add your spices to the ingredients", right?"

„Yes, yes!"

Mathieu Ganio/ Onegin. Copyright: Opéra National de Paris/ Julien Benhamou - with kind permission.

„Mathieu, I do not think that I need to ask you if you feel more „at home" in abstract parts or in narrative ballets, do I? And... "

But I was somehow mistaken. His answer surprises me the same way other answers have surprised me. That's good.

„Wait, wait, Ricardo. I have a perfect example. „Other Dances", which is not a narrative ballet at all but which is something... Today you have asked me about my dream roles and I have to add that it is very special to dance „Other Dances", or „Dances at a Gathering" - in them you don't have a character to play but you can put so much of yourself!„

I was so delighted to hear this that I felt warm with emotion and had to say „They are so special and yes, they are abstract but at the same time they are not abstract!"

„They are but they are not... Surely because of the musicality, of everything that makes it possible to express so many things. I have always preferred narrative ballets but now I know that you can also put so much of yourself in this kind of non-narrative ballet "

„Like in Balanchine's „Liebeslieder Walzer", which many people don't like – I don't understand why – which is a ballet in which all dancers can add their own „spices" to it, meaning to tell even their own story, while dancing, while sitting, while walking in from the terrace or out to it – there's so much room for that. Incredibly much! And here we are again in what we have talked about as we mentioned „reduction". It does not cause the final product to have less consistency, much on the contrary... And this brings me to another question: when you are dancing an abstract part, do you „create a story" for yourself in it?"

"Not a story but I have to find something imaginative, in the musicality which I share with my partner, something to outweigh the fact of abstraction. A mood to underline a specific atmosphere... It is not just doing the steps otherwise it is only stressful and boring. Because if you have five performances you can't do all of them the same way but if you have „something else up your sleeve", which allows you a certain freedom every night – and that makes your performance different every night – it is more enjoyable. And the audiences feel that!" 

“They sure do”, I answer “And this is what I love in your work, Mathieu, you feel these differences of mood while adding touches, the little „unimportant" things that matter so much. The very subtle things that reflect you on that very day. We are not the same every day.”

Suddenly, it becomes quite clear to me that during this whole interview, because of all the dense topics we have talked about, it would have been impossible to “see eye to eye” during the whole length of it.

That is the good part of it: to realize that his attitude is nearly “tangible”. He tries to understand everything, other points of view, he firstly does not agree upon. He never closes a door. He always reflects and say “Well, perhaps if I would dance it, I'd understand it better”. Not dismissing an idea is a sign of intelligence and sensibility.

“Dear Mathieu, thank you so much for this first talk. I am aware of the fact that this is not the kind of “average”, typical interview and I would like to mention that it was more than interesting to talk to you and thank you for your extreme cooperation, in the purest sense of the word. It is not an everyday thing to be involved in a talk that contains so much openness!

„Oh, Ricardo, I am happy to do something different for a change! I thank you for your kindness to me!"

Mathieu Ganio/ Swan Lake. Copyright: Opéra National de Paris/ Maurizio Petrone - with kind permission.

Afterword:

...and when the Interview was over I kept for sometime for myself, wondering, pondering. There's no guarantee, we know that as I have mentioned this at the beginning, but this time sympathy, empathy, fun, laughter, and exchange of ideas did take place during this „chat". A good thing to remember. A memento of a happy moment. And I am taking along with me somtehing that I humbly learned from Mathieu Ganio during theis “Get-Together”, the reflection of his attitude towards his Sart and Life:

To care – that is the secret.

And He cares.

Ricardo Leitner

December 16th, 2022